扎卡里亞：那麼，我們這就開始這場正式訪談了。
溫總理：開始訪談之前，我想讓你知道我會用發自內心的話回答你的問題，也就是說，對你提出的所有問題，我都將有一說一。我經常對人說，有時候我可能沒有說出我的想法，但只要我說出來，那麼我說的都是真實的。我想你正在採訪的是一位政治家，同時他也是一個普通人物。我習慣對話而不樂於長篇大論，所以你可以隨時打斷我，提出你的問題。這無疑會讓我們的對話更加愉快。
扎卡里亞：我期待這次談話的機會，首先我要感謝您給我們這次訪談機會並讓我們感到榮幸。我要問的第一個問題，我想也是許多人想知道的。您怎麼看當前這場影響美國的金融危機？您是否因此而認為美國模式有許多我們剛剛才意識到的缺陷？
溫總理：我是6年前擔任中國總理一職的，在此之前我是副總理。在副總理的任上，我經歷了另一場金融危機不過發生在亞洲。亞洲金融危機爆發後，中國採取了積極的財政政策並決定人民幣不貶值。通過這一舉措，我們成功地克服了諸多困難。不過，現在美國的問題是由次級信貸危機引發，隨後房利美和房地美出現問題，雷曼兄弟集團、美林證券、美國國際集團也相繼陷入困境。這些大型的投資銀行和保險公司都出現了系統性問題。
這讓我感到發生在美國的這場危機產生的影響可能波及全球。不過，面對這場危機，我們也必須認識到今天的世界不同於1930年代人們生活的那個世界。因此，我們這一次應當攜手共赴危機。如果美國的財政和經濟體系出了問題。那麼其影響不僅在美國，而且在中國，在亞洲，乃至整個世界都會感受得到。
我注意到，美國政府為防止一個孤立的危機演變成系統性危機採取了一系列的政策和措施。我希望這些措施和步驟能夠取得良效。我也希望這些措施和步驟不僅能夠拯救美國的幾個大型金融公司，也能幫助穩定美國的經濟並確保美國的經濟將來能夠平衡發展。
扎卡里亞：如果反觀中國經濟，您知道，現在有許多人認為中國經濟將出現大幅下滑。許多人預測說中國經濟增速可能放緩至7％。您認為這是否會發生？果真如此，我想知道您認為在中國將會出現什麼樣的後果？
溫總理：是的，的確如此。中國經濟以年均9.6%的增速增長了30年。這是一個奇蹟。特別是在2003至2007年間，中國獲得了兩位數的經濟增長，而同時，消費物價指數（CPI）年均增長不足2％。可以公正地說中國經濟實現了相對穩定和快速的經濟增長。這段時間，中國一直積極地採取調控措施。我們之前的考慮是防止快速的經濟增長變得過熱，防止較快的物價上漲演變成明顯的通貨膨脹。不過，情況很快發生了變化。我指的是美國的次貸危機，以及隨之而來的嚴重的金融震盪。
結果，我們看到外部需求下滑，中國的國內需求在短時間內也幾乎難以飛快增長。因此，中國經濟確實有衰退的危險。在這種背景下，我們必須重新調整中國的宏觀經濟政策，以適應外部的變化。對我們來說最重要的是，實現經濟增長、抑制價格上漲和控制通貨膨脹之間的平衡。此外，還要保持創造就業機會和抑制通貨膨脹之間的平衡。我知道實現所有這些領域的平衡是非常、非常困難的。我們需要採取靈活、謹慎的宏觀經濟政策來適應外部的變化，以在保持通貨膨脹低水平的同時確保快速、穩定的經濟增長。
扎卡里亞：如果美國陷入嚴重衰退，您認為貴國還能繼續增長嗎？
溫總理：今年上半年，或者看看今年前八個月的統計數據，我們可以看到我們已經成功地做到了這一點。美國一旦衰退肯定會對中國經濟產生影響。我們知道，10年前中美貿易額只有1026億美元，然而今天這一數字飆升至3020億美元，實際上增加了1.5倍。美國需求減少肯定會影響中國的出口。美中兩國的財政緊密相連。如果美國的金融部門出現什麼問題，我們就會擔心中國資本的安全。這就是為什麼從一開始我就明確表示，美國的金融問題不僅關係美國本國的利益，也關係到中國乃至整個世界的利益。
扎卡里亞：換一種說法，就是我們相互依存。中國是美國短期國庫債券的最大持有者，據估計，價值接近1萬億美元。這讓一些美國人感到不安。您能否打消他們的顧慮，保證中國永遠不會利用這種地位作為某種形式的武器？
溫總理：我已經說過，我們相信美國的實體經濟部門仍然基礎堅實，特別是高科技和基礎工業。現在問題出現在虛擬經濟部門。不過如果這一問題得到合理解決，那麼美國仍有可能穩定本國經濟。中共政府殷切希望，美國能夠儘快穩定本國經濟和金融。我們也希望看到美國能夠持續發展，因為這將有利於中國。當然，我們擔心中國在美資本的安全。不過，我們相信美國是一個值得信賴的國家。特別是在這種困難時期，中國一直向美國伸出援助之手。我們確信，這種援助將有助於穩定全球經濟和金融，有助於防止全球經濟和金融體系出現巨大震盪。我相信現在合作是頭等大事。
扎卡里亞：我是否可以問問您，中國在更廣泛意義上的角色？許多人將中國視作一個現實的超級大國。他們困惑，為什麼中國不更加積極地參與政治解決諸如達爾富爾問題、伊朗及其核抱負問題？人們希望，中國能夠成為--用時任美國副國務卿羅伯特·佐利克的話來說--一個負責任的利益攸關者；希望中國能夠更積極地參與處理世界政治問題，但到目前為止中國表現並不積極。您會如何評價這種情況？
溫總理：回答這個問題之前，我需要首先糾正你提問中的措辭。中國現在並不是一個超級大國。儘管中國有13億人口，儘管自改革開放以來，中國連年取得相對快速的經濟和社會發展，但中國仍然存在着不同地區之間、城鄉之間的發展不平衡問題。中國仍然是一個發展中國家。我們仍然有8億農民生活在農村，數千萬人沒有脫貧。事實上，中國還有6000多萬城鄉居民依靠基本生活補貼為生。而且，每年我們需要為2300萬左右的城市失業者和大約2億進城務工的農民擔責。我們需要不懈地努力，認真解決這些問題。我們需要做大量的工作來解決我們自身的問題。中國不是一個超級大國。這正是我們需要集中精力專注於自己的發展、努力改善人民生活的原因。
扎卡里亞：不過，中共政府確實可以向蘇丹政府、伊朗政府或緬甸政府施壓，讓他們沖釋高壓政策。貴國和這三國都有關係。
溫總理：這牽涉到你的第二個問題。實際上，中國是國際社會中一個堅持正義的國家。我們從不拿原則做交易。以你剛剛提及的達爾富爾問題為例。中國一直主張解決達爾富爾問題需要採用雙重路線。中國是第一批向達爾富爾派遣維和部隊的國家，也是第一個向蘇丹提供援助的國家。此外，我們還努力敦促蘇丹各方領導人進行接觸，以儘快找到一個和平解決問題的方案。
扎卡里亞：您是否認為，如果伊朗得到核武器將會給整個世界帶來威脅？你認為世界應當如何作為來努力避免出現這種可能？
溫總理：我們不支持伊朗出現核武器。我們認為伊朗有權基於和平目的開發利用核能。不過，伊朗開發核能的努力必須遵守國際原子能機構的保證條款，而且伊朗不應該發展核武器。中國在伊朗核問題上的立場是鮮明的。我們希望圍繞這一問題展開對話予以解決，希望我們能夠敦促伊朗當局放棄發展核武器的想法，承擔國際個原子能機構的保障條款責任。儘管如此，我們希望能夠利用和平談判來實現這一目的，而不是肆意訴諸武力或以武力相威脅。這就像處理兩個人之間的關係。如果一方試圖將另一方逼上絕路，那麼可能適得其反。這將無助於解決問題。我們的目的是解決問題，而不是嘗試將另一個逼入困境的話，那麼結果反而達不到。那將無助於解決問題。我們的想法是解決問題，而不是加劇緊張態勢。
在這裏，我也向你提出一個問題：難道你不認為中國在解決朝核問題上付出的努力，以及我們在這一問題上採取的立場，實際上已經幫助朝鮮半島的局勢一天一天好轉嗎？當然，我知道仍然需要時間尋求一個完全、徹底的朝核問題解決方案，在此基礎上幫助實現東北亞的安全和穩定。不過，我想強調的一點是，我們採取的方式和付出的努力，證明在方向上是正確的。
扎卡里亞：我很榮幸您問我這樣一個問題。總理閣下，我想告訴您，中國在朝鮮問題上的努力一直為美國和全世界所讚賞。當然這更使人們希望中國能用與在朝鮮同樣有效的方式積極參與其他領域，因為我們從中看到了效果。
溫總理：我們從幾年來的六方會談中獲得了不少經驗和教訓。六方會談取得進展也得益於六方之間的密切合作。
扎卡里亞：我可以問您有關另外一組可能的會談嗎？達賴喇嘛此前表示，他現在似乎願意接受中國統治西藏，接受在西藏施行社會主義制度。他所尋求的是文化自治和一定程度的政治自治。這組會談顯然局限於（流亡）藏人和中共政府之間的較低層次上。您為什麼不利用您的權力和談判技巧親自處理這一問題呢--為中國人民，當然還包括生活在中國的西藏人民的利益計，您或胡錦濤主席可以直接同達賴喇嘛進行談判，一勞永逸地解決這一問題。
溫總理：我們和達賴喇嘛的問題並不是一般意義上的民族、宗教或文化問題，而是一個關係到是捍衛中國的統一還是容許分裂國家活動的重大原則問題。在對待達賴喇嘛問題上，我們必須採取兩條路徑。一方面，我們承認達賴喇嘛是一個宗教領袖，他在西藏、特別是在信奉佛教的地區有一定的影響力。但另一方面，我們也不洗認識到，他不是一個普通的宗教人士。達賴喇嘛建立的所謂流亡政府實行神權統治。這個所謂的政府的目標是將西藏從中國分裂出去。
達賴喇嘛在世界許多地方不停地鼓吹所謂「大西藏」 自治思想。實際上，達賴喇嘛追求的這種所謂「自治」的真實目的是利用宗教干涉政治。他們企圖將所謂的「大西藏」從祖國分裂出去。許多美國人並不知道這個所謂的「大西藏」到底有多大。實際上，它包括西藏、四川、雲南、青海和甘肅，共計5省區。其覆蓋面積佔中國領土的四分之一。
幾十年來，我們對達賴喇嘛的政策一直沒有改變：即只要達賴喇嘛願意承認西藏是中國領土不可分割的一部分，只要達賴喇嘛放棄分裂活動，我們願意同他本人或他的代表進行接觸和談判。
現在，談判的結果取決於他是否有誠意。1950年代西藏事件[叛亂]之後，中央政府的最高領導人，鄧小平先生也會見過達賴喇嘛的代表。
因此，我認為問題並不在於我是否同達賴喇嘛進行接觸。關鍵是這種接觸和談判的效力問題。
我們希望他能用切實的行動顯示誠意，打破僵局。
扎卡里亞：您希望看到達賴喇嘛採取什麼樣的行動來顯示他的誠意？
溫總理：實際上，我已經明確表示過，我們觀察任何人，包括達賴喇嘛，我們不僅察其言，也觀其行。
他的誠意就是放棄分裂活動。
扎卡里亞：之後，您會和他會面嗎？
溫總理：到那時，一切有賴於形勢的發展。當然，談判可以繼續，根據談判的進展，我們也可以考慮提升談判級別。
扎卡里亞：溫總理，正如您所說的，貴國9.5%的經濟增速持續了30年，這是歷史上經濟增速最快的國家。如果有人過來問您，「中國作為一個發展中國家的成功模式是什麼？」您將如何回答？中國成功的關鍵是什麼？是一種什麼模式？
溫總理：這個問題很好回答。你可以想想這個事情——大約30年前，為什麼中國不能像隨後幾十年那樣快速發展？我想這歸功於我們在1978年提出的改革開放政策。這就是中國成功的關鍵。改革開放政策大大解放了中國的生產力。
我們還有一個重要的思想：社會主義也可以實行市場經濟。
扎卡里亞：人們會認為這是自相矛盾的。你們實行市場經濟，即市場配置資源，而在社會主義制度下，一切都要集中計劃。你們是如何讓兩者相得益彰的？
溫總理：我們經濟政策的完整規劃是，在政府的宏觀經濟指導和調控下，充分發揮各種市場力量在配置資源方面的基礎作用。
過去30年裏，我們獲得一條重要的經驗，即確保充分發揮看得見的手和看不見的手在調控各種市場力量方面的作用。
如果你熟悉亞當·斯密的經典著作，你就知道他有兩部著名作品。一部是《國富論》，另一部是關於道德和倫理的書。前者更多地探討的是「看不見的手」，即市場的力量。後者探討的是社會公平和正義。在這後一本書里，亞當· 斯密強調政府在國民財富再分配方面發揮調控作用的重要性。
如果一個國家的大部分財富都集中於少數人手裏，那麼這個國家幾乎就看不到和諧和穩定。
同樣的道理也適用於當前的美國經濟。處理美國當前的經濟和金融問題，不僅需要看得見的手，也需要看不見的手。
扎卡里亞：我是否可以問您--有些美國人和歐洲人，特別是人權觀察人士說，中國在過去的數年裏強力壓制人權，他們一直希望奧運會能夠帶來中國的開放，不過它帶來的是更多的壓制。您如何看待這種觀點？
溫總理：中國通過主辦奧運會，實際上已經變得更加開放。任何不帶偏見的人都會看到 --也已經看到這一點。在中國，言論自由和新聞自由得到保障。中共政府重視並保護人權。我們將這些原則寫入了中國憲法，我們也認真地執行這一規定。我想對於任何一個政府來說，最重要的是確保其人民享有憲法賦予他們的每項權利。包括生存權、自由權和追求幸福的權利。
我並不認為，我們在人權方面沒有缺點。在有些地方有些領域，我們確實存在着這樣或那樣的問題。然而我們一直不懈努力加以改進，我們希望進一步改善我們國家的人權。
扎卡里亞：來到中國後，我住在一家酒店裏。當我在電腦里敲進「天安門廣場」這幾個字的時候，我遇到了防火牆，有人稱其為「中國功夫網」（正式譯法為「中國防火牆長城」，此處採取草根譯法）。如果沒有在互聯網上自由搜索信息的權利，那麼你能說這是一個先進的社會嗎？
溫總理：中國現在擁有2億多互聯網用戶，許多人、甚至西方也承認中國的網絡自由。不過，中國像世界上許多國家一樣，為維護國家安全，也採取了一些合理的限制措施。這樣做是為了安全，為了國家的整體安全，為了大多數人的自由。
我也可以告訴你，在中國的互聯網上，你可以看到許多嚴厲批評政府的帖子。
我們正是通過瀏覽互聯網上這些批評性的意見，努力找到存在的問題並改進我們的工作。
我認為一個制度或政府不應該畏懼批評性意見或觀點。只有關注這些批評，我們才可能進一步改進我們的工作，取得更大的進展。
我經常瀏覽互聯網了解時事。[next]
扎卡里亞：您喜歡哪些網站？
溫總理：我瀏覽了許多網站。
扎卡里亞：誠蒙您的仁慈，我想問您一個世界上很多人都想知道的問題。有一副非常著名的、您1989年在天安門廣場的照片。您從處理1989年那一問題上的經歷中獲得了什麼教益？
溫總理：我認為，在推動經濟改革的同時，我們也需要推動政治改革，因為我們的發展本質上是全面的發展，我們的改革也應當是全面的改革。
我想，你提問的核心是關於中國的民主發展問題。我認為，就中國的民主發展而言，我們有三個領域有待改進：
第一：我們需要漸進地改進我們的民主選舉制度，這樣國家權力才會真正屬於人民，才會服務於人民。
第二：我們需要改進司法制度，依法治國，建設法治國家，而且我們需要有一個獨立而公正的司法制度。
第三：政府應當接受人民的監督，這就要求我們，號召我們增強行政事務的透明性。政府接受新聞媒體和其他黨派的監督同樣是非常必要的。
另外還有一個非常重要的方面，即我們需要考慮中國的國情，我們需要引入適合中國特色的制度，我們需要採取漸進的方法。
扎卡里亞：有人說您正在研究日本的制度，因為日本是民主制度，但只有一個政黨可能贏得選舉。您認為這種模式適合中國嗎？
溫總理：我認為世界上有三種民主形式。重要的是民主的內容。這意味着，從根本上來說，民主，重要的是這種民主形式是否真正代表人民的呼聲和利益。
我認為，社會主義是一種民主制度。沒有民主，就沒有社會主義。
這種民主首先應確保人民的民主選舉權、監督權和決策權。
這種民主也應當幫助人民在一個自由和平等的環境裏實現個人的全面、充分的發展。
這種民主應當建立一個成熟的司法制度之上。否則，就可能產生混亂。這就是我們為什麼需要依法治國並保障法律面前人人平等的原因。
扎卡里亞：我們多次談到選舉。您認為25年之後，中國會舉行競爭性的全國選舉嗎？是否有可能出現兩個政黨競選像您這樣的職位？
溫總理：我很難預測25年之後的事情。我相信，中國的民主將繼續發展。20-30年之後，整個中國社會將變得更加民主、更加公正，司法制度將進一步改善。我們看到的社會主義將更加成熟並變得更好。
扎卡里亞：溫總理，我最後問您兩個私人問題。您說您讀過很多次馬可·奧勒留的著作。奧勒留是一個著名的斯多葛學派哲學家。我讀過他這樣的話，人不應沉湎於自我，也不應沉湎於自私自利的追求，而應更加關心整個社會。最近我到中國後，我為那裏個人主義、消費主義的泛濫感到非常震驚。您是否正向您的國人發出一種信號，讓他們少考慮考慮個人，多關心關心社會？
溫總理：我確實多次讀過馬可·奧勒留的《沉思錄》，他的文字深深地打動了。書中的那些人物偉大一時。他們現已隨風飄逝，只留下一個故事，甚至只留下部分情節。因此，我得出結論：只有人能夠創造歷史，書寫歷史。我非常看重道德，我堅信企業家、經濟學家和政治家都應多多重視道德和倫理。在我的心目中，正義是衡量倫理和道德的最高標準。當我們思考經濟問題時，我們更多地想到公司、資本、市場、技術等等。我們也許忘記了某些方面，比如信仰和道德。只有當我們把這兩方面結合起來，我們才能全面破解經濟的本源。確實，在中國經濟的發展過程中，一些公司以道德為代價追求利益。我們將永遠不允許這樣的事情發生，因為僅靠這種手段是不能長久的。這就是為什麼我們提倡企業道德、職業道德和社會道德。
這就是為什麼上午我回答這個問題時，我說我相信經濟學家的血管，我們應該看見道德的血液。我們考慮經濟問題時，想的較多的是公司、資本、市場和技術等等這些實體因素。我們可能忘記了背後發揮作用的其他因素--這些因素同樣受看得見的因素，比如信念和道德的影響。只有當我們把這兩種因素結合起來看時，我們才能看到經濟DNA的全貌。
當然，在中國的經濟發展過程中，有些公司實際上在追求利潤的同時拋棄了道德，我們決不會允許這樣的事情發生。
我們不會允許以道德淪落為代價發展經濟，因為這種方法決不可能長久。
這就是我們為什麼提倡企業道德、職業道德和社會道德的原因。
扎卡里亞：閣下，請允許我問您最後一個問題。您肯定一直在關注美國大選。您對我們國家正在進行的這場陌生的競選和選舉有什麼樣的看法？
溫總理：美國的總統選舉應當由美國人民來決定。不過我密切關注的是大選之後的中美關係。
近年來，中美關係一直保持良好的發展勢頭。我們希望，無論什麼人當選總統，無論什麼人入主白宮，無論哪個黨派贏得大選，都能繼續發展同中國的關係。無論誰當總統，領導新政府，中國都希望繼續推進和發展與美國的關係。
扎卡里亞：樂見其成。謝謝您，總理閣下。我相信您的人擔心我們有點兒超時。謝謝您的友善和坦誠。
Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao was interviewed by Fareed Zakaria on "Fareed Zakaria GPS" this weekend
Zakaria: We are now beginning the formal interview, just so everyone realizes.
Wen Jiabao: Before we begin, I would like to let you know that I will use the words from the bottom of my heart to answer your questions, which means that I will tell the truth to all your questions.
I always tell people that sometimes I may not tell what is on my mind, that as long as I speak out what is on my mind, the words are true.
I think you are now interviewing a statesman, and at the same time you are interviewing a statesman in his capacity as a common people.
I prefer dialogue to long-winded speeches, so you can always interrupt me and raise your questions. That would certainly make our dialogue more lively.
Zakaria: I look forward to the chance for this dialogue, and I begin by thanking you for giving us the opportunity and the honor. The first thing I have to ask you, I think is on many people's minds. What do you think of the current financial crisis affecting the United States, and does it make you think that the American model has many flaws in it that we are just recognizing now?
Wen Jiabao: I took office as the Chinese premier six years ago, and before then I was serving as the vice premier of the country. When I was the vice premier, I experienced another financial crisis but in Asia. And in wake of the Asian financial crisis, China adopted a proactive fiscal policy and decided not to devalue the RMB, the Chinese currency, but doing so we managed to overcome the difficulties. But now the problems in the United States started with the subprime crisis and later on, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were involved in the problems, and the Lehman Brothers was in trouble, Merrill Lynch was in trouble, the AIG was in trouble, and such large investment banking companies and insurance companies all encountered systematic problems.
And this has made me feel that this time the crisis that occurred in the United States may have an impact that will affect the whole world. Nonetheless, in face of such a crisis, we must also be aware that today's world is different from the world that people lived in back in the 1930s.
So this time we should join hands and meet the crisis together. If the financial and economic system in the United States go wrong, then the impact will be felt, not only in this country but also in China, in Asia and in the world at large.
I have noted a host of policies and measures adopted by the U.S. government to prevent an isolated crisis from becoming a systematic one, and I hope that measures and steps they have adopted will pay off. I also hope that these measures and steps will not only save some major U.S. financial companies but also help stabilize the U.S. economy and ensure that the U.S. economy will grow on a balanced course.
Zakaria: When you look at your own economy, as you know, there are many people who now say there will be a significant slowdown of the Chinese economy. There are people predicting that Chinese growth rates may slow to as much as 7 percent. Do you think that will happen? And if it does, I wonder, what do you think the consequences will be in China?
Wen Jiabao: Yes, indeed. China's economy has been growing at an annual average rate of 9.6 percent for 30 years running. This is a miracle.
Particularly between the year 2003 and 2007, China had enjoyed a double-digit growth for its economy, and at the same time the CPI grew in for less than 2 percent a year. It is fair to say that China has achieved a fairly fast and steady economic growth.
This time, China has been proactive in adopting regulatory measures. Our previous considerations were to prevent a fast-growing economy from becoming overheated and to prevent the faster soaring prices from becoming obvious inflation. But things have changed very fast, and I refer to the sub-prime crisis in the United States and the serious financial turbulences that follow the sub-prime crisis.
And as a result, we have seen a decline in external demand, and China's domestic demand can hardly be increased in a very significant manner in a short period of time. In this case, it is true that we do have this risk of a slowdown in the Chinese economy.
In this context, we must re-adjust the macroeconomic policy in China in order to adapt ourselves to external changes. What is most important is for us to strike a balance between economic growth, dampening the price rises and bringing inflation under control. And to strike a balance between job creation and dampening inflation and I know it's very, very difficult to strike a balance in all those areas.
We need to adopt a flexible and prudent macroeconomic policy to adapt to external changes in order to ensure very fast and steady economic growth and at the same time keeping inflation down.
Zakaria: Do you think you can continue to grow if the United States goes into a major recession?
Wen Jiabao: In the first half of this year, or given the statistics for the first eight months of this year, we can see that we have managed to do that.
A possible U.S. economic recession will certainly have an impact on the China economy. As we know that 10 years ago, the China-U.S. trade volume stood at only $102.6 billion U.S., while today the figures soar to $302 billion U.S., actually representing an increase of 1.5-fold. A shrinking of U.S. demand will certainly have an impact on China's export.
And the U.S. finance is closely connected with the Chinese finance. If anything goes wrong in the U.S. financial sector, we are anxious about the safety and security of Chinese capital.
That's why in the very beginning I have made it clear that the financial problems in this country not only concerns the interests of the United States but also that of China and the world at large.
Zakaria: There is another sense in which we are interdependent. China is the largest holder of U.S. Treasury bills. By some accounts, they're worth almost $1 trillion. It makes some Americans uneasy. Can you reassure them that China would never use this status as a weapon in some way?
Wen Jiabao: As I said, we believe that the U.S. real economy is still solidly based. Particularly the high-tech industries and the basic industries. Now, something has gone wrong in the virtual economy, but if this problem is properly addressed, then it is still possible to stabilize the economy in this country.
The Chinese government hopes very much that the U.S. side will be able to stabilize its economy and finance as quickly as possible, and we also hope to see sustained development in the United States as that will benefit China.
Of course, we are concerned about the safety and security of Chinese money here. But we believe that the United States is a credible country and particularly at such difficult times, China has reached out to the United States.
And actually we believe such a helping hand will help stabilize the entire global economy and finance and to prevent a major chaos from occurring in the global economic and financial system. I believe now cooperation is everything.
Zakaria: May I ask you about China's role in a broader sense? Many people see China as a superpower already, and they wonder: why is it not being more active in political resolution of issues such as the issue of Darfur or the issue of Iran and its nuclear ambitions?
There is a hope that China will play a role as a responsible stakeholder, to use Robert Zoellick's phrase when he was deputy secretary of state, and that China will be more active in managing the political problems in the world, and that so far it has not been active. How would you react to that?
Wen Jiabao: To answer this question, I need to correct some of the elements in your question first. China is NOT a superpower. Although China has a population of 1.3 billion and although in recent years China has registered fairly fast economic and social development since reform and opening up, China still has this problem of unbalanced development between different regions and between China's urban and rural areas. China remains a developing country.
We still have 800 million farmers in rural areas, and we still have dozens of million people living in poverty. As a matter of fact, over 60 million people in rural and urban areas in China still live on allowances for basic living costs in my country. And each year, we need to take care of about 23 million unemployed in urban areas and about 200 million farmers come and go to cities to find jobs in China. We need to make committed and very earnest efforts to address all these problems.
To address our own problems, we need to do a great deal. China is not a superpower. That's why we need to focus on our own development and on our efforts to improve people's lives.
Zakaria: But surely the Chinese government could pressure the Sudanese government or the Iranian government or the government in Burma to be less repressive. You have relations with all three of them.
Wen Jiabao: That brings me to your second question. Actually in the international community, China is a justice-upholding country. We never trade our principles.
Take the Darfur issue that you raised just now for example. China has always advocated that we need to adopt a dual-track approach to seek a solution to the Darfur issue. China was among the first countries sending peace-keepers to Darfur.
China was also the first country that gave assistance to Sudan and we also keep our efforts to engage the leaders in Sudan to try to seek a peaceful solution to the issue as quickly as possible.
Zakaria: Do you think it would be dangerous for the world if Iran got nuclear weapons? And what do you think the world should do to try to stop that possibility?
Wen Jiabao: We are not supportive of a nuclear rise to Iran. We believe that Iran has the right to develop a utilization of nuclear energy in a peaceful way. But such efforts should be subject to the safeguards of the [International Atomic Energy Agency], and Iran should not develop nuclear weapons. As far as the Iranian nuclear issue is concerned, China's stance is clear-cut.
We hope that through promoting the talks concerning this issue, that we will be able to encourage the Iranian authorities to give up any idea to develop nuclear weapons and accept IAEA safeguards.
Nonetheless, we hope that we can use peaceful talks to achieve the purpose, rather than resort to the willful use of force or the intimidation of force. It's like treating the relationship between two individuals. If one individual tries to corner the other, then the effect will be counterproductive. That will do nothing in helping resolve the problem. Our purpose is to resolve the problem, not to escalate tensions.
And I also have a question for you: Don't you think that the efforts made by China in resolving the Korean nuclear issue and position we have adopted in this regard have actually helped the situation on the Korean peninsula move for the better day by day? And, of course, I know that it still takes time to seek a thorough and complete solution to the Korean nuclear issue, and on that basis to help put in place the security and stability in Northeast Asia. But, what I'd like to stress is that the model that we have adopted, and the efforts we have made, prove to be right in this, in this direction.
Zakaria: Since you honored me by asking the question, I will say to you, premier, that China's efforts in North Korea have been appreciated in the United States and around the world. And of course it makes people wish that China would be active in other areas in just the same productive way that it was in North Korea because we see that it produces results.
Wen Jiabao: We have gained a lot of experience and learned lessons from years of negotiations concerning the six-party talks, and the progress made in the six-party talks also has a lot to do with the close cooperation among the six parties.
Zakaria: May I ask you about another set of possible talks? The Dalai Lama has said now it appears that he would accept China's rule in Tibet, he accepts the socialist system in Tibet, and what he asks for is cultural autonomy and a certain degree of political autonomy. The talks apparently are stuck at a lower level between the Tibetans and the Chinese government. Why don't you, given your power and your negotiating skills, take the issue yourself -- and you or President Hu Jintao would negotiate directly with the Dalai Lama and solve this issue once and for all for the benefit of the Chinese people, and of course the Tibetan people who are also in China?
Wen Jiabao: Our issue with the Dalai Lama is not an ethnic, religious or cultural issue in the ordinary sense. It's a major principled issue concerning safeguarding the country's unity or allowing efforts to separate a country. And we must adopt a two-pronged approach in viewing the Dalai Lama. On one hand, it is true that the Dalai is a religious leader, and he enjoys certain influence in the Tibetan region, and particularly in regions that the inhabitants believe in Buddhism. And, on the other hand, we must also be aware that he is not an ordinary religious figure. The so-called government in exile founded by the Dalai Lama practices a theocratic rule. And the purpose of this so-called government in exile is to separate Tibet from China.
In many places all over the world, the Dalai Lama keeps preaching about the idea of a so-called autonomy in the greater Tibetan region. And actually, the so-called autonomy that he pursues is actually to use religion to intervene in politics. They want to separate the so-called greater Tibetan region from the motherland. And many people in the United States have no idea how big is the so-called greater Tibetan region, the so-called greater Tibetan region, preached by the Dalai Lama, actually covers Tibet, Sichuan, Yunnan, Qinghai and Gansu -- altogether five provinces. And the area covered by the so-called greater Tibetan region accounts for a quarter of China's territory.
For decades, our policy towards the Dalai Lama remains unchanged: that is, as long as the Dalai Lama is willing to recognize that Tibet is an inalienable part of China's territory, and as long as the Dalai Lama gives up his separatist activities, we're willing to have contact and talks with him or his representatives.
Now, sincerity holds the key to producing result out of the talks. After the Tibet incident back in the 1950's, the highest leader of the central government, Mr. Deng Xiaoping, also met the representatives of the Dalai Lama.
So, I don't think there is this problem, as whether I can have contact with the Dalai Lama. The real key lies in the effectiveness of such contact and talks.
We hope that he can use real actions to show sincerity and break the deadlock.
Zakaria: What action would you like to see from the Dalai Lama that would show sincerity?
Wen Jiabao: Actually, I already made it clear that when we observe any individual, the Dalai Lama included, we should not only watch what, we should not only observe what he says, but also watch what he does.
His sincerity can be demonstrated in giving up separatist activities.
Zakaria: And then you might meet with him?
Wen Jiabao: By then, everything depends on the development of the situation. Of course, talks may continue, and in light of the progress in the talks, we may also consider raising the level of the talks.
Zakaria: Premier Wen, your country has grown, as you pointed out, 9½ percent for 30 years -- fastest growth rate of any country in history. If people come to you and say to you, "What is the Chinese model of succeeding as a developing country?" What would you say? What is the key to your success? What is the model?
Wen Jiabao: It's easy to answer this question, that you may think about this thing -- that about 30 years ago, why China was not able to grow as fast as it has in the following years. I think this is attributable to the reforms and opening up a policy we introduced in 1978. This holds the key to China's success. By introducing reform and opening up, we have greatly emancipated productivity in China.
We have one important thought: that socialism can also practice market economy.
Zakaria: People think that's a contradiction. You have the market economy, where the market allocates resources, and in socialism, it's all central planning. How do you make both work?
Wen Jiabao: The complete formulation of our economic policy is to give full play to the basic role of market forces in allocating resources under the macroeconomic guidance and regulation of the government.
We have one important piece of experience of the past 30 years: that is to ensure that both the visible hand and the invisible hand are given full play in regulating the market forces.
If you are familiar with the classical works of Adam Smith, you will know that there are two famous works of his. One is "The Wealth of Nations"; the other is the book on the morality and ethics. And, "The Wealth of Nations" deals more with the invisible hand that are the market forces. And the other book deals with social equity and justice. And in the other book he wrote, he stressed the importance of playing the regulatory role of the government to further distribute the wealth among the people.
If in a country, most of the wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few, then this country can hardly witness harmony and stability.
The same approach also applies to the current U.S. economy. To address the current economic and financial problems in this country, we need to apply not only the visible hand but also the invisible hand.
Zakaria: May I ask you -- some Americans and Europeans, particularly human rights observers, say that China has cracked down on human rights over the last few years, that they had been hoping that the Olympics would lead to an opening of China, but that it has, there has been more repression. How would you respond to that?
Wen Jiabao: By hosting the Olympic Games, China has actually become more open. Anyone without biases will see -- have seen that. In the freedom of speech and the freedom in news media coverage are guaranteed in China. The Chinese government attaches importance to, and protects, human rights. We have incorporated these lines into the Chinese constitution, and we also implement the stipulation in real earnest. I think for any government, what is most important, is to ensure that its people enjoy each and every right given to them by the constitution.
Including their right to survival, freedom and to pursue their happiness.
We don't think that we are impeccable in terms of human rights. It is true that in some places and in some areas, we do have problems of this kind or that kind. Nonetheless, we are continuing to make efforts to make improvements, and we want to further improve human rights in our country.
Zakaria: When I go to China and I'm in a hotel and I type in the words Tiananmen Square in my computer, I get a firewall, what some people call the Great Firewall of China. Can you be an advanced society if you don't have freedom of information to find out information on the Internet?
Wen Jiabao: China now has over 200 million Internet users, and the freedom of Internet in China is recognized by many, even from the west. Nonetheless, to uphold state security, China, like many countries in the world, has also imposed some proper restrictions. That is for the safety, that is for the overall safety of the country and for the freedom of the majority of the people.
I can also tell you on the Internet in China, you can have access to a lot of postings that are quite critical about the government.
It is exactly through reading these critical opinions on the Internet that we try to locate problems and further improve our work.
I don't think a system or a government should fear critical opinions or views. Only by heeding those critical views would it be possible for us to further improve our work and make further progress.
I frequently browse the Internet to learn about a situation.
Zakaria: What are your favorite sites?
Wen Jiabao: I've browsed a lot of Internet Web sites.
Zakaria: I will take advantage of your kindness and ask you a question that many people around the world wonder about. There is a very famous photograph of you at Tiananmen square in 1989. What lesson did you take from your experiences in dealing with that problem in 1989?
Wen Jiabao: I believe that while moving ahead with economic reforms, we also need to advance political reforms, as our development is comprehensive in nature, our reform should also be comprehensive.
I think the core of your question is about the development of democracy in China. I believe when it comes to the development of democracy in China, we talk about progress to be made in three areas:
No. 1: We need to gradually improve the democratic election system so that state power will truly belong to the people and state power will be used to serve the people
No. 2: We need to improve the legal system, run the country according to law, and establish the country under the rule of law and we need to view an independent and just judicial system.
No. 3: Government should be subject to oversight by the people and that will ask us, call on us to increase transparency in government affairs and particularly it is also necessary for government to accept oversight by the news media and other parties.
There is also another important aspect that when it comes to development of democracy in China, we need to take into account China's national conditions, and we need to introduce a system that suits China's special features, and we need to introduce a gradual approach.
Zakaria: People say you're studying the Japanese system because there's democracy but there's only one party that seems to win the elections. Is that the kind of model you see for China?
Wen Jiabao: I think there are multiple forms of democracy in the world. What is important is the substance of democracy.
Which means that at the end of the day, what is important about democracy is that whether such form of democracy can really represent the calling and interest of the people.
Socialism as I understand it is a system of democracy. Without democracy, there is no socialism.
And such a democracy first and foremost should serve to ensure people's right to democratic elections, oversight and decision making.
Such a democracy should also help people to fully develop themselves in an all-around way in an environment featuring freedom and equality.
And such a democracy should be based on a full-fledged legal system. Otherwise, there would be chaos. That's why we need to run the country according to law and ensure that everyone is equal under the law.
Zakaria: We've talked about elections many times. Do you think in 25 years there will be national elections in which there will be a competition, there will be perhaps two parties, that will be running for a position such as your own?
Wen Jiabao: It's hard for me to predict what will happen in 25 years time. This being said, I have this conviction -- that China's democracy will continue to grow. In 20 to 30 years time, the whole Chinese society will be more democratic and fairer, and the legal system in China will further be improved. The socialism as we see it will further mature and improve.
Zakaria: Let me ask you, premier, finally a couple of questions that are personal. You've said that you've read the works of Marcus Aurelius a hundred times. Marcus Aurelius is a famous stoic philosopher. My reading of him says that one should not be involved in the self, and in any kind of pursuits that are self-interested but should be more for the community as a whole. When I go to China these days, I am struck by how much individualism there is, how much consumerism there is. Are you trying to send a signal to the Chinese people to think less about themselves and more about the community?
Wen Jiabao: It is true I did read the meditations written by Marcus Aurelius Antonio on many occasions, and I was very deeply impressed by the words that he wrote in the book -- to be fact - where are those people that were great for a time? They are all gone, leaving only a story, or some even just half a story. So I draw the conclusion that only people are in the position to create history and write history.
I very much value morality, and I do believe that entrepreneurs, economists and statesmen alike should pay much more attention to morality and ethics.
In my mind, the highest standard to measure the ethics and morality is justice.
That's why in the morning when I answered the question, I said that I believe in the veins of the economist, we should see the blood of morality.
When we think about economy, we think more about the real elements concerning the company, the capital, the market, the technology, so on and so forth. And we might forget about the other sort of elements that work behind the scene, and these factors are also affected by the visible factors like conviction and morality. Only when we combine these two kinds of factors, can we put in place a full picture of the DNA of the economy.
It is true in the course of China's economic development, some companies have actually pursued their profits at the expense of morality and we will never allow such things to happen.
We will not allow economic growth at the expense of the loss of morality because such approach simply can not sustain.
That's why we advocate the corporate, occupational and social ethics.
Zakaria: Let me ask you a final question, your excellency. You must have been watching the American election. What is your reaction to the strange race and election that we are having in this country?
Wen Jiabao: The presidential election of the United States should be decided by the American people. But what I follow very closely is the relationship between China and the United States after the election.
In recent years, there has been a sound growth momentum in the growth of China-U.S. relations. And we hope, and whoever is elected as the president and whoever is sworn in into the White House, no matter which party wins the election, that he or she and the parties will continue to grow the relationship with China. And China hopes to continue to improve and grow its relationship with the United States no matter who will take office and lead the new administration in this country.
Zakaria: On that happy note, I thank you, your excellency. I'm sure your people are worried we took a little extra time. And I thank you in advance for your kindness and your frankness.
